Thought I would share a reply I sent to a forumite and friend on the EL message boards. I won’t use his name here, or point to any single forum disagreement or anything, but I will post this to just put out there what I have learned about message boards over time, and what my general feeling is toward them now. Do with it what you will. In response to whether or not I had seen a particular thread or not…
Yep…seen it all. And I come to the same conclusion I always do: not worth it. Its just smoke and trash…it’s never been any different. I have run my own forums since 1998. That is 11 years by my count. I quit worrying or caring about board drama and fallout circa 2003. Why? A few reasons:
1. Nothing I can do about it. People will always have differing opinions and motives about a thousand different topics. What I think about it is irrelevant. If people are going to fight, they’ll do it with or without me. (EDIT: This includes moderators.)
2. Nothing about it matters. It’s just talk, from people with varying differences in lifestyle, upbringing, perspective, character, etc. And none of it effects my life in any way shape or form. And not only that, it’s talk that would change on all sides if people really knew each other, or had to have the conversation face to face. I have way too many other things that I am required to be concerned with…like my wife, my children, my career, my small contribution to the world, walking the dog, etc. In the larger scheme of things, the boards are not even a tangible blip on my radar screen.
3. “Hamburger or Hot Dogs.” What does that mean? It’s like this. The super bowl is a huge deal, full of great amounts of money, support, fan participation, food, rivalries, endorsements, and more. A great big “picture” of what the end game of football is meant to be. Now, lets say, at the game, in the stands, there are two people who have some sort of disagreement. Like, how one thinks hotdogs are better than burgers, and the other guy likes a good hamburger over a dog anytime.
This tiff goes on for 45 minutes, and by the end, both are thoroughly offended and even more unwilling to see anything from the opposing side of the issue. While they both have it in them to come to some sort of friendly end to this war, the chances are nearly 100% that they won’t.
Yet, the game goes on, teams are scoring touchdowns, kickers are making extra points, owners are enjoying their box seats, fans are thrilled by the action, viewers at home are enjoying family and friends, millions are watching from all over the world, sportscasters are comparing stats, and refs are making calls. What I am trying to say is that the hotdog / hamburger guys ARE the forums in this scenario. They are of infinitesimal consequence to the larger world happening around them. The game goes on, the teams play on, the fans watch on, the commercials play on…life goes on…caring not at about the two squabblers who could not find a way to make their peace.
That is precisely how I see message boards. They are provided for people to communicate as they see fit. To build community, or divide themselves. I can’t let them dictate anything, or delay anything, or even interrupt anything. Anymore than the NFL will stop the game so they can help hotdog and hamburger work out their differences.
I hope that helps clarify my stance on issues like this. For me, it is simple perspective.
Scott
So yeah, my general take.
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Perfect.
*hugs for Scott*
Moderating a moderately-sized community is tough. Mostly because over half the people who are fighting about hot dogs or hamburgers are in it for the lulz, and in general, just want to screw with others. I just close the topic and move along.
Thanks for putting it into sensible words.
I don’t get it… is this a pole of some sort? I like hamburgers better!
Egg-zactly! And it’s mostly people who let their compulsions and stubbornness rule their dialog. Nobody can let things go. I really kinda pity those people and not in a good way. They’re pathetic and they don’t realize how pathetic they are at that moment.
Very well said, Scott!
Yep. Makes sense de la the.
Unlike what I just said.
That is some deep thoughts. Very cool read. Sort of brings out the mellow hippie attitude in me.
@Pineapple Farmer – are you kidding me?! hot dogs would kick any hamburger’s ass!
… just kidding
Good point Scott. I rarely even visit my own forums
Hamburger
Having run several forums myself over the past few years I too have this perspective. Forums are great, they provide a place for people to communicate and share ideas/opinions, but there is no way for someone to control absolutely everything that gets posted. It’s just not reasonable. All forums have flame wars and the like, but that’s only a small piece of the vast amount of knowledge and ideas that are contained within them.
I’m kind of sad nobody flamed you in the comments yet. I mean, just for the irony.
Forums are a means of communication that is largely formless and without any tangible direction. They more or less take on a life of their own. The best you can do is make an attempt at steering the meandering beast, but in the end…all that usually accomplishes is just pissing it off.
At least, that’s how I’ve come to see them.
Artistically put (no pun intended).
This should be should be made to read in the user agreements of all forums.
@Tom – I thought about doing just that, but I’ll just agree with Scott. It’s too easy to hide behind anonymity.
I think I had the same epiphany as a result of attempting to rationalize with people who didn’t agree with my politically. It is not only futile, but not worth getting riled over.
“If you wouldn’t say it in person, why not say it online?”
Says it all.
me*
I like Brian’s thoughts on forums.
I post in forums infrequently and you just summed up why.
In theory the community draws me forth, but once I see how easily people slip into being jerks or a group of jerks I just laugh and leave.
It’s so easy for people to become masked villains online. Cowards really.
Insert my meaningless comment here, the one that Scott never read because he was out walking the dog, while dreaming up his next profitable idea that allowed him to afford to take his kids to Disney World for the 12th time, creating lasting memories that will be remembered for ages, long after people have forgotten they even posted on a forum somewhere, wait – forums?! what forums, you won’t even remember- you’ll be too busy being a Nick fanboy, reading his memoirs, laughing at his stories about his dad- ol’ man Johnson, whom you vaguely remember from the days when you wasted hours and hours on the old interwebs doing something you thought was important… where did all the time go… rosebud?
And this is exactly why people hate multiplayer gaming too. But similarly with forums there’s nothing inherently wrong with multiplayer gaming. There’s just a few punks that apparently you have a hard time not listening to.
This is just a narrow view of forums, really. You’re talking about forum social scene, whereas forums serve many functions outside of creating personal dramas. Take a look at the “How To Do Stuff” forum. Sure, there’s opinions… everyone has them. But a lot of people are HELPED there. At the gaming forum people are guided this way and that to various interesting games.
Then someone comes along who’s overly stubborn and ruins the whole concept for you? Too bad. Forums are ideal for the open-minded.
As others have said, arguments on forums have little point (this differs little from real life. How often can you convince someone of anything really?). It doesn’t stop me from doing though, as I am right now in a way, because I enjoy it I suppose.
But thats not all forums are FOR. Often many forums will have communities which share ideas and methods for doing things, and are willing to communicate with others their ideas and spread the wealth of thought. I for instance, have recently gotten into modeling and painting these little war men, and have gotten much help from various forums on various techniques and materials, and would not be nearly as far without the help.
I agree with you, theses hot dog(frankfurter) vs hamburger fight are pretty useless, especially when any sane human will acknowledge that pies rule them all.
Don’t forget about the loving Chili Dog! YUM!
About 30 minutes before reading this, i was on a forum…
Writing my reaction to someone, then i deleted it thinking i won’t change his mind anyways.
Then i come here and read this..
perfect timing
I agree with most of what you said. Funny how people can crack their pants about stupid stuff all day long …it’s one of the things I just can’t understand. And I love your analogy.
(Hamburger, btw.)
Younger people are generally insecure and egotistical, and, let’s face it, the vast majority of forum goers are in their 20’s or below. Within this demographic, everyone wants to tell the whole world what they think about every single little topic. This helps them define themselves, giving them a greater sense of self-identity and boosting their ego. When you think they’re trying to argue against you, in reality they’re just struggling to define ‘who they are’ to themselves. Have you ever heard that people define themselves by their differences with others? This is exactly what’s happening here (in most cases). “I like hamburgers more than hot dogs!” he says, and as he fights to tear down your appreciation for hot dogs, it helps him build his own identity as a hamburger lover.
There are a few ways to keep a forum mature and constructive.
#1. The more practical the forum, the more focused and useful the material and the more mature the discussion. “How To” forums would be an example of this. “How to do something,’ is a black or white subject. It either works, or it doesn’t. This type of forum is easy to moderate.
#2. Rule with an iron fist. Have a number of good moderators who can keep an eye out for back-and-forth discussions that lose focus or drag on for too long. Temp-ban anyone who trolls, pours gas on existing flames, or is rude or abrasive in even the slightest. This may sound harsh but I know of one forum in particular that does this and the community is one of the most mature I’ve encountered online.
#3. Encourage people to limit their replies to one or two posts at max (with possible enforcement). This works surprisingly well. When forum-goers realize they have a limit to the number of replies they get, they tend to be more courteous to one another. This is probably because abruptly ending an argument with blatant and hostile disagreement tends to make the instigating party look more foolish. Again, it’s an ego thing.
I’m with you Scott: I find watching sports boring too.
Wholeheartedly disagree and disagree with some of the comments too. This is a defeatist attitude and I see it as trying to place the blame for a dysfunctional community away from yourself and onto the community. Especially if you’ve created the forum you are responsible for the problem. If you or the mods are doing their jobs properly the sort of people that you will attract will drum out the bad seeds themselves requiring less direct oversight. Look at The Well, it’s been running fantastically for years and years because mods and users have a shared sense of responsibility. Maybe that’s not a fair example because a monthly user fee weeds out the children and most of the petty garbage but I just use it as an example of one place that went for utopia and pretty much got there.
Being the guy that Scott was talking to, I should probably stop and say a thing or two, and nothing else beyond that.
Jim, you have the right sentiment. This was in response to a message that I sent Scott stating that I found his staff to be acting in a very distasteful manner.
Hindsight’s 20/20. Look at all Scott does. He can’t micromanage a forum. If he could, these forums would probably be loaded with features, skins, and have heavier rulesets.
Having a family and a couple jobs of my own, this should have been more familiar if not obvious to me at the time. Both Jim and Scott make sense.
The lesson learned here is that forums bring out the worst in people. For that reason, I’m done with’em.
Everyone knows Hotdogs are better for the simple reason, you can fit 2 of them in a bun if you wanted to. You can boil them, bake them, bbq them, fry them or even run electrodes through them to cook them.
A hamburger is a lump of squished meat in comparison.
As for the forum stuff… meh… You read the wars to work out your own opinion. If you see the extremes in two different directions, you can generally work out the truth from it and make a useful decision. But then… I’ll never return to this comments thread to read it so feel free to comment on my hotdog thing as much as you like.
*GRIN*
ps. Animal Crackers top any food out there.
More than anything else, it was fatherhood that convinced me a couple of years ago that I had much better things to do with my time than get my blood pressure up about stuff anonymous idiots were saying online.
Aside from the occasional comment thread on the comics I follow, of course…
I still can’t get the darned thing to validate my forum account.
…
That said, you spent more time than necessary saying, “Like I care.”
I still can’t get the darned thing to validate my account (nor get a response when I “contact a moderator”).
…
That said, you spent more time than necessary saying, “So what?”
So the comment mechanism crapped out, reloaded (cache cleared) without the comment, then decided to resurrect the lost comment after I made a second attempt.
…
“So what?”
I’m not sure how a self-proclaimed nerd/geek can use a football analogy, but…
Well written, Scott. Your message puts a lot into perspective.
You had forums? O.o
I agree that forum flame-wars often are dumb and irrelevant, but sometimes they can be a source of good laugh. Just like those hotdog/hamburger guys. If their insults are witty and fun they can provide a pretty good entertainment.
I think that perhaps you shouldn’t put yourself so much higher than those people. “I am the super bowl here, and they are some dudes arguing over nothing”. The super bowl is not be-all, end-all. Contrary to what you wrote, people from all over the world do not watch it. Outside of the USA we simply do not care
Take care, Scott (oh, and hamburgers rock).