I just have to get something off my chest. It’s been driving me nuts, and this blog is really my only outlet for issues like this. So here goes…
Watched a documentary yesterday where, during an interview, a pastor of a huge mega church in Colorado was asked why they felt it was ok, nay, mandatory, to sort of get up into people’s grill and essentially force them to hear their take on Jesus, being saved, going to Hell, etc.
When asked, his reply was this. “I am a Coke drinker…I love the stuff, but because we live in a pluralistic society, because I like Coke, I am forced to watch Pepsi commercials. I own a GM truck, but I am forced to watch Ford commercials.”
Let me just break down a couple problems that I have with the good reverend’s comments.
A. You never, EVER have to watch a Pepsi or Ford commercial. You ALWAYS have the option of turning it off, changing the channel, not looking at the newspaper, ignoring the billboard, etc. You have complete and TOTAL free will in this regard.
B. Someone I don’t know or trust, stopping me in the street, jumping in my way and telling me I need to be saved (or whatever it might be…just using this guy as my example) is a complete fallacy of comparison with the whole Coke vs Pepsi thing. Now if a dude in a Pepsi suit would jump in front of me in line at the Chevron counter, and hold a can of cola up to my face and demand that I drink it, then maybe the comparison works. But they don’t. Therefore it doesn’t.
Let me tell you how I have come to understand free will, and what I like to call, “my circle of influence”.
My circle of influence is small, and rightly so. Mine is primarily my family and closest friends. An example: It is right and good for me to sit my kids down and help them understand the physical and social dangers of smoking, drinking, drugs, etc. This is my mandate…my job as dad. To help them make good choices, and thereby have a strong understanding of the consequences, be they good or bad, to the choices they might make.
There are two parts to this: Helping them make good choices, but maybe more importantly, give them an understanding that they have no right to judge others for engaging in the things I warn them about. To simplify, Nick knows its bad to smoke, but Nick also knows that it’s bad to ridicule or chide others who choose to smoke. This applies to anything…just using smoking as an example.
Back to the religion thing. Someone else in this documentary, when asked why they are so in peoples faces all the time, said the following: “This nation was founded on these principles, and we have to make sure to do our part to bring people to Christ.”
Wrong.
This country (the US) was founded on some important principles, but not the ones this guy thinks. I love this quote from Thomas Jefferson:
“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. “
Even more to my point:
“It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God.“
And lastly, one of my all time favorite quotes from him, or anyone:
“It is in our lives and not our words that our religion must be read.“
I believe ever so strongly, that people need to respect others and their right to make choices of their own. To act otherwise, is lame. LAME!
In the end, enjoy the circle of influence you have to do some freaking good in this freaking world. That makes a bigger dent, difference, and change than any amount of time screaming into the faces of people you don’t agree with.
Take us out again, Thomas: “Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others.”
I hear ya, brotha! I hear ya.
@Nakoma
Scott is speaking against delivery, not content. He’s made it fairly clear he attends church, to some degree, in the past.
We may have a choice when it comes to watching commercials … but those in power are doing everything they can to make it impossible to just switch off.
ie : we have freedom of choice in theory, but it is not always so in reality.
The ‘enemy’ is always making it harder for us to avoid picking his brand/religion, whereas it gets harder to hold on to your choice if it isn’t popular enough.
We do have freedom of choice, but it is never an easy road if you go against whatever is most popular.
That may explain why those who pick the less popular choice and stick with it become so obsessive about spreading their belief.
It doesn’t matter if it is religion, environment, politics, hobby’s, bikes, cars, games, drinks, choice of computing platform etc.
You may be more likely to run into some religious fanatic however that doesn’t mean that the religion is at fault.
The tougher it is to hold onto your choice the more likely it is you will become a fanatic for your choice if you manage to hold onto it.
I love god…
But I hate organized religion
Excellent post Scott, I really enjoyed it. I think that one reason folks feel they need to spread and share their religious views is that they believe that if others think like they do that it can help to alleviate some of the suffering and horrible atrocities that occur all over the world. While I think this may be nice in theory, I think it is limited. It is confined by the experiences we have had and the people and the world we have come to know. Beliefs, opinions and viewpoints should always be respected, and rudeness is never appropriate. Two things once common that are increasingly rare in this world courtesy and sense. I feel, as a spiritual person, that it is more important to focus on things that are common to all human beings, that is, what makes us and the people we care about happy. If these things can be the focus than we can foster all of the other ideals that are commonly associated with religion but in my view can and tend to be totally unrelated. This may seem a bit simplistic, but simplicity can benefit many in this world. The film RELIGULOUS seems to be at the root here. I think Bill M does what he does best, he selects the examples that allow him to entertain his viewers. He claims pure objectivity however I did not see him interview a single, sane, rational religious person in this film. It seems unlikely to me that this is a random sampling. Bill is an entertainer first, just like newscasters,extreme evangelicals, pushy apostolates, and politicians … not really searching for the truth, whether it exists or not. Again great post Scott!
Scott… as a Christian I agree that forcing religion on any person is wrong and does not show the love that my bible teaches, as and stated many times above I let my example speak for me.
That said I am equally irritated that evolution is not taught as an idea, but crammed into my kids as fact at the public school my taxes pay for.
I just laugh at religion in general.
@Paintguy
It’s ‘crammed into kids as fact’ because it is fact. How and why it happens is where the theory comes into play. Just the same as gravity. Gravity happening is a fact, how and why it happens is a theory.
Also, unless you want to be a clergyman, religion isn’t too important for your future career choices. Science, on the other hand, including biology, is quite relevant to quite a few available careers. That is, at least, the ones that pay more then $25,000 a year.
I myself am I sincere Christian. However, I really do NOT like it when things are shoved in my face like that. It’s a complete turn-off. People don’t HAVE to listen. They don’t HAVE to become Christians. Of course, I believe that they should, but that’s their choice. Isn’t that kind of the point? We’re not Communists. Well written though. But seriously, humongous mega-churches and extremely crazyily religious people freak me out. That’s not a turn-off, it’s a run-away!
@Veko
Note that I am open to evolution being explored in school “with” all other concepts as to the start of our existence so that each can make a choice on their own with all supporting information presented. From my viewpoint science supports intelligent design over evolution. You may choose to see things differently. Turn the tables around to only intelligent design taught in school and I think you may change your views on the lack of choice your kids are being “crammed” with on this particular subject.
That said I realize I have sidetracked this blog and take you back to annoying religious fanatics in your face.
@Paintguy
You’re right that this side track is irrelevant, I just want to clear up one minor error you make. Science doesn’t agree with intelligent design over evolution. ID is just science with all its gaps (which exist since man doesn’t yet know everything) stuffed full of religion.
Imagine doing this with recent history. “It is said that Teddy Roosevelt went to Africa, but since that hasn’t been proven we can rest assure that he actually hung out with Jesus in Heaven for two years.” Yeah, thank your god that intelligent design is just a fad for the ignorant.
Scott,
You have valid points. A Christian life spoken only and not lived is a poor example indeed, however if I am on a road that is for sure going to lead me to fall into destruction, would I not want to know it? Many folk cannot see truth if it was plainly given to them and that is where this spiritual warfare comes in. If you see a minister warn people of impending doom, we should not be so quick to judge his motives. We are only trying to help rescue those, like we ourselves have been rescued.
Are we people? Yes. Are we human? Yes. Does it rain on our block as well? Do we deal with issues in this world like other do? Yes, yes and again I say yes. I was rescued from the grave and I want others to know that. My message is not always welcomed, but to those who receive it experience freedom and joy that is difficult to tell but must be experienced.
The Word has examples of those making preparations before a diaster such as Noah and Joseph. People laugh at such antics as forewarning but it is foolish to ignore the bridge out sign while we continut to drive along the road.
It is Love that compells us to face ridicule such as probably this post will cause. Christ himself stated…”If you have done it to the least of these you have done it to Me”.
I choose to warn.
Blessings in your search for Him.
*sigh* Any heated discussion of religion leads to a discussion of evolution.
I judge people, and there’s nothing wrong with it, but I judge correctly and I don’t let my judgment distort my treatment of others. I believe homosexuality is a sin, and I see homosexuals as sinners, but my core principles compel me to behave cordially towards all men and not to persecute others. This is easy to do since I realize that I once lived as a sinner as well. Many people take offense at being judged, especially by Christians, but I’d wager it’s something deeper than that. Besides, only you have control over what you let offend you or not. If the judgment of others is offensive to you, then it’s your own fault for letting it be that way.
Our nation was founded on Christian principles, but I don’t see how that gives you license to evangelize without respecting people’s personal boundaries.
Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Paine should be added to the group of Founding Fathers that were far from what we would consider Christian. Thomas Paine said “Each of those churches show certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.”
Even though John Adams didn’t care much for Paine, here is what he said about him, “History is to ascribe the American Revolution to Thomas Paine.” (1776)
The America revolution, ascribed by a Founding Father to a man that didn’t believe in the Bible. Hmm, I’m still hunting for these Christians founding principles.
I’d also add that John Adams was a Unitarian, which is a far more flexible definition of Christian than most people have. He didn’t believe in original sin, and therefore didn’t believe in salvation coming from Christ, which ultimately means he didn’t believe Jesus to be divine. That basically means his version of Christianity is in the Jefferson Bible.
Benjamin Franklin is an easy one, he said “I soon became a thorough Deist.”
Scott, well said, well written, well done. My respect for you just went up a couple of notches (and it was pretty high to start with).
Scott,
I know this post is almost two weeks old now, but I thought I might attempt to provide additional perspective. I saw this video recently that comes from Penn Jillette’s (of Penn & Teller) video blog. Jillette is an atheist, but he tells a story here about being approached by a Christian who was proselytizing. Here’s a link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JHS8adO3hM&eurl=http://technorati.com/videos/youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253D7JHS8adO3hM&feature=player_embedded
It’s a bit long, and he rambles a bit, but the gist is this: If I, as a Christian, believe that you are in danger of spending eternity in torment, apart from God, what does it say about me if I *don’t* at least attempt to share my faith with you? How little would I have to care about you in order to simply ignore that possibility?
I agree wholeheartedly that the approach matters a great deal, but this gave me food for thought.